Re: tumbling rocket and satellite

From: John A. Dormer 2 via Seesat-l <seesat-l_at_satobs.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:08:47 -0500
I encourage everyone who is interested in this effort to review this 
document:

http://alcdef.org/docs/ALCDEF_Standard.pdf

It seems like it would drop in for our applications, using the satellite 
ID instead of the asteroid ID. It's rigorous, but many of the fields 
would be constant from a given observer.

     John

On 4/22/2019 09:19, Marshall Eubanks via Seesat-l wrote:
> On 2019-04-22 07:37, Alain Figer via Seesat-l wrote:
>> Very interesting. Superb !
>>
>>> it could be a string describing the pattern, or it could be a data 
>>> series
>> in some format to store the whole light curve.
>>
>> I would strongly plead for setting a link to access the whole light 
>> curve
>> and/or photographic images.
>> Many light curves are quite complex and deserve a careful examination.
>> Focussing only on the period values is too restrictive, I mean. 
>> Especially
>> after half a century of such a work of period assessing by amateurs. 
>> It's
>> time, I believe,  to go beyond mere period variations and try and link
>> photometric variations to the precise geometry of the satellite.
>>
>
> The asteroid community does have a light curve database for asteroids
>
> http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html
>
> which might serve as a template for this.
>
> Regards
> Marshall Eubanks
>
>
>> Regards
>> Alain Figer
>>
>> Le lun. 22 avr. 2019 à 13:15, <Daniel.Hampf_at_dlr.de> a écrit :
>>
>>> Folks,
>>> I've been following this discussion with great interest. We are 
>>> recording
>>> a lot of light curves and derive rotation periods from them. I've 
>>> set up a
>>> little web database specifically for this task, but it is currently 
>>> only
>>> accessible from our intranet. But I could change that easily. This web
>>> database already contains measurements from different sources, but 
>>> would
>>> need to expand a lot. It would also be great to couple it with the 
>>> old PPAS
>>> records, to get long term evolutions.
>>> I am happy to make this website public and the data completely open and
>>> unrestricted (creative commons or something). If I'd get some 
>>> programming
>>> help it'd be faster, but I can also do it myself.
>>> On the other hand, I am also happy to supply our data anywhere if 
>>> there is
>>> a good database.
>>> One thing I wonder is the best data format: It could be only a float
>>> (rotation or flash period), it could be a string describing the 
>>> pattern, or
>>> it could be a data series in some format to store the whole light 
>>> curve.
>>> Maybe one should offer all options.
>>> Best regards
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Seesat-l [seesat-l-bounces+daniel.hampf=dlr.de_at_satobs.org] on
>>> behalf of Alain Figer via Seesat-l [seesat-l_at_satobs.org]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 11:54 AM
>>> To: Brad Young; Tristan Cools; alberto rango; Leo Barhorst; Kevin 
>>> Fetter
>>> Cc: Seesat-L
>>> Subject: Re: tumbling rocket and satellite
>>>
>>> Many thanks, Brad, for your enthusiastic response.
>>>
>>> At the moment I identified in the SeeSat-L a handful of observers 
>>> showing a
>>> significant interest in optical behaviour of satellites.
>>> Our number is rather limited it seems. Moreover each of us have 
>>> their own
>>> objectives and methods - all different from those of each other -  and
>>> that's ok.
>>> However that probably sets limits to our present ambition.
>>>
>>> A problem we are facing is adding our competences and contributions 
>>> without
>>> substracting whatever to each other's work.
>>>
>>> It's not necessary, IMO, that we change anything to our methods now.
>>> As a first step we  could simply locate all the stuff we are producing
>>> about optical behaviour of satellites in a single data center.
>>> Anyone could choose to use either the PPAS/PFAS format or not.
>>>
>>> Alberto, Brad and Kevin seem to keep for theirself to the PPAS/PFAS 
>>> format.
>>> Whereas Leo is using his well-known own system such as :
>>>
>>> "28538 05 004B 4172 G 20180224210336756 F, P ~ 22 sec.
>>> 23862 96 029D 4172 G 20180225032313460 F, P ~ 13 sec.
>>> 24795 97 020D 4172 G 20180225034230488 F, P ~8 sec. with Fff
>>> 21798 91 082A 4172 G 20180225054552448 F, with FA "
>>>
>>> and could keep to it.
>>> As for me I prefer posting a whole paper about each observation, as 
>>> I have
>>> been currently doing at Flickr for 7 years.
>>>
>>> If all our contributions were also present in the same data center, it
>>> would be much easier to perform synthesis work, at will.
>>> In such a mindset I issued Leo Barhorst 2014-2018 observations in the
>>> Flickr's data center here :
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/groups/satellites_artificiels/discuss/72157689682699925/ 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For exemple this data center is open to receive contributions by 
>>> anybody,
>>> everybody being allowed to issue and update their own contributions 
>>> there.
>>> Synthesis work could be added there by anyone willing to do it..
>>> Obviously another data center could be proposed for such a 
>>> collaborating
>>> platform. I am obviously ready to accept any other suggestion.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Alain Figer
>>>
>>> Le lun. 22 avr. 2019 à 09:15, Brad Young <allenb_young_at_yahoo.com> a 
>>> écrit
>>> :
>>>
>>> > I would be very interested too, as I always enjoy viewing satellite
>>> > optical behavior, and have missed the activity of PPAS and the 
>>> working
>>> > group; it was more active when I started in 23003. I was not aware of
>>> > astroguard.ru providing data on optical behavior; I glanced at their
>>> > public reports and will have to check that out more thoroughly.
>>> >
>>> > Some ideas to discuss:
>>> >
>>> >    - If you'd like to limit your work to only Russian sats, no 
>>> problem. I
>>> >    may take on a broader scope. As with JSC Vimpel's positional 
>>> work, our
>>> >    independent analysis won't hurt.
>>> >    - Hopefully several others will join in the fun, and may have 
>>> their
>>> >    own targets in mind.
>>> >    - I attached (1) a dump of my FPAS reports extant on satflare.com
>>> >    - The originating data is also in seesat-l posts from me as"BY F
>>> >    XXXXXX"(2)
>>> >    - Unfortunately, satflare stopped adding any more reports from 
>>> anyone
>>> >    last year. Obviously, we would not want to use that for reports.
>>> >    - No problem here with future reports using PPAS format, but 
>>> (as Leo
>>> >    once wrote to you, "I would like to renew also this list and 
>>> attract
>>> >    more amateurs to search these objects." This might a good time, as
>>> sort of
>>> >    a reboot, to consider alternatives.
>>> >    - I'm going to start looking (and imaging) more variables and 
>>> report
>>> >    them via seesat.
>>> >
>>> > A few requests:
>>> >
>>> >    - My attempt to make a query on Space-Track to identify CIS / 
>>> Russian
>>> >    satellites that have not decayed and are not debris failed - do 
>>> you
>>> hav e a
>>> >    list of targets of that ilk?
>>> >    - I also attached (1) my current extrapolation of the previous 
>>> PPAS
>>> >    priority list (I always looked at Mike's site for this). It is 
>>> just a
>>> >    worksheet in the sprawling behemoth that is my main satellite
>>> observing
>>> >    spreadsheet. Again, with a reboot, we could look at improving 
>>> both at
>>> the
>>> >    priorities are assigned and how the list is presented.
>>> >
>>> > Notes:
>>> > 1) Attachments bowdlerized for list posting.
>>> > 2) My seesat posts titles refer to:
>>> >
>>> > OO-T-[Location]-MMDDYY
>>> >
>>> > OO = observer's initials
>>> > T = type of report
>>> >
>>> >    - D = decay (not yet, but soon I hope!)
>>> >    - F = FPAS - refer to Simone's description at: FPAS Reports -
>>> >    Specifications <http://www.satflare.com/fpas.asp>
>>> >    - G = flaring geosynchronous satellite reports
>>> >    - P = PPAS
>>> >    - R = remote imaging
>>> >    - S = steady (in a PPAS or FPAS format)
>>> >    - V = general visual observations
>>> >
>>> > It should also include:
>>> >
>>> >    - A = clear all day, clouds at sunset
>>> >    - E = equipment lost, broken, stolen
>>> >    - O = outreach at star parties where, once you're branded the
>>> >    "satellite guy" you are expected to know the name, owner, and 
>>> launch
>>> date
>>> >    of every one that passes by
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Brad Young Visual:
>>> > 10 x 50 binoculars
>>> > Meade ETX-125
>>> > 22" f/4.2 UC Obsession
>>> > COSPAR 8336 =TULSA1 +36.139208,-95.983429 660ft, 201m
>>> > COSPAR 8335 =TULSA2 +35.8311  -96.1411 1083ft, 330m
>>> > Remote Imaging:
>>> > MPC I89 COSPAR 7777 38.165653 -2.326735 5150ft, 1650m Nerpio, Spain
>>> > MPC Q62 COSPAR 7778 -31.2733 149.0644 3400ft, 1122m Siding Spring, 
>>> NSW,
>>> > Australia
>>> > MPC H06 COSPAR 7779 32.92 -105.528 7298ft, 2225m Mayhill, New 
>>> Mexico USA
>>> > MPC U69 COSPAR 7780 37.07 -119.4 4610ft, 1405m Auberry CA USA
>>> > MPC 323 COSPAR 7782 -32.008 116.135 984ft, 300m Perth, WA, Australia
>>> > MPC Q67 COSPAR 7784 -33.3967 149.4917 2081ft, 650m Bathurst NSW,
>>> Australia
>>> > MPC W76 COSPAR 7785 -30.45 -70.75 5151 ft, 1570m Chacay, Chile
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 7:15:15 AM CDT, Alain Figer <
>>> > alain.figer_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The PPAS has been an extremely efficient and fruitful project, for 
>>> many
>>> > many years,  but it's seemingly dead now and that's obviously a pity.
>>> >
>>> > In my opinion, the 'astroguard.ru' russian site builds now the best
>>> > database (MMT data) up to date about photometric behaviour of 
>>> satellites.
>>> > The only problem is they keep secret all the info about russian
>>> satellites.
>>> >
>>> > That's why I believe it would be of value to manage by ourselves a
>>> > specific database for russian satellites.
>>> > I am ready to take part enthusiastically to such a project.
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> > Alain Figer
>>> >
>>> > N.B. I published my first observations in the PPAS database in 
>>> 1973 as
>>> AF.
>>> >
>>> > See my own database (since March 2012) about satellite observing :
>>> >
>>> > LIST OF BEST FLASHERS at:
>>> > https://www.flickr.com/groups/1983844_at_N22/discuss/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Le dim. 21 avr. 2019 à 00:39, Brad Young via Seesat-l <
>>> seesat-l_at_satobs.org>
>>> > a écrit :
>>> >
>>> > There are quite a few PPAS type reports of tumbling objects and other
>>> > visually interesting satellites at:
>>> > http://www.satflare.com/fpas_query.asp
>>> > in a sortable database.
>>> > To stretch this thread a little bit, I stopped reporting to that site
>>> > because it doesn’t seem to be updating any new observations. Would 
>>> it be
>>> > useful to resume making PPAS report in the old style? It doesn’t seem
>>> like
>>> > the PPAS list of interesting objects has been updated for quite some
>>> time.
>>> > I have a personal list that may be of some interest. If anyone has 
>>> any
>>> > ideas or if interested and follow up please contact me off the 
>>> list. With
>>> > the northern summer months, and, it will be a good time to revitalize
>>> > optical behavior observing work.
>>> > Brad
>>> >
>>> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Saturday, April 20, 2019, 7:02 AM, tristan.cools--- via Seesat-l <
>>> > seesat-l_at_satobs.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Thanks Alain, I will follow the discussion forums.  I knew about some
>>> other
>>> > Centaurs tumbling but to my knowledge it is rather rare but this is
>>> solely
>>> > based on my own observations.(my observations of Centaur rockets 
>>> isn't
>>> that
>>> > large)  I have some trouble in finding updated PPAS records.  Are 
>>> flash
>>> > periods still beeïng reported somewhere ?  During the last 10 
>>> years I did
>>> > some sporadic observations but didn't report anything anymore.
>>> >
>>> > gr, tristan cools
>>> > Belgian Working Group Satellites
>>> >
>>> > Op za 20 apr. 2019 om 11:36 schreef Alain Figer 
>>> <alain.figer_at_gmail.com>:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Hi Tristan,
>>> > >
>>> > > > Most Centaur rockets have always been steady (according to my own
>>> > > observations)
>>> > >
>>> > > I am somewhat surprised by such a statement, since it is not what I
>>> have
>>> > > been currently noticing.
>>> > > See for instance several threads in my blog at :
>>> > > https://www.flickr.com/groups/satellites_artificiels/
>>> > >
>>> > > More exhaustively, the russian site 'astroguard.ru' (MMT data) 
>>> lists
>>> > > multiple examples of flashing Atlas Centaur rockets.
>>> > > Concerning 2007-060B their graph shows how the rotation period 
>>> has been
>>> > > decreasing for the last years ;  their last measurement is at 
>>> 48.72s
>>> for
>>> > > the rotation period (twice your photometric period).
>>> > >
>>> > > See also the info by the same russian site about Landsat 4 
>>> 1982-072A.
>>> > > They measured a rotation period at 16.7 s in 2018 but observed the
>>> rocket
>>> > > as 'Aperiodic'  in other circumstances too.
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards
>>> > >
>>> > > Alain Figer
>>> > > Gometz: 48.67 N ; 2.13 E ; 170m a.s.l.
>>> > > Vars: 44.57 N ; 6.68 E ; 1850m a.s.l.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Le sam. 20 avr. 2019 à 10:28, tristan.cools--- via Seesat-l <
>>> > > seesat-l_at_satobs.org> a écrit :
>>> > >
>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Most Centaur rockets have always been steady(according to my own
>>> > >> observations) but I was surprised to see 07-60B/32379 as a nice
>>> regular
>>> > >> varying object with a period of about 23s.  I think I will 
>>> follow this
>>> > >> object to see it's future flash behaviour. Maybe this has already
>>> been
>>> > >> reported...
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Another object, is the Landsat 4 satellite(82-72A/13367), no exact
>>> > period
>>> > >> measured but around 30s with sharp and round maxima.  In my old
>>> records
>>> > I
>>> > >> had a notice written that this satellite did have a mechanism 
>>> to be
>>> > >> retrieved by the Space Shuttle.  Well, it is too late for that, 
>>> but
>>> only
>>> > >> one satellite I think has ever been retrieved and re-launched I
>>> > remember.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> greetings,
>>> > >> Tristan Cools
>>> > >> Belgian Working Group Satellites.
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> Seesat-l mailing list
>>> > >> http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Seesat-l mailing list
>>> > http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Seesat-l mailing list
>>> > http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Seesat-l mailing list
>>> http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seesat-l mailing list
>> http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
> _______________________________________________
> Seesat-l mailing list
> http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
_______________________________________________
Seesat-l mailing list
http://mailman.satobs.org/mailman/listinfo/seesat-l
Received on Mon Apr 22 2019 - 12:11:23 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.0 : Mon Apr 22 2019 - 17:11:24 UTC