Re: Nugget From Latest NASA Orbital Debris Quarterly News

From: Dr. T.S. Kelso via Seesat-l <seesat-l_at_satobs.org>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:48:16 +0000
Gavin,

I can tell you that I’ve been pushing DOD behind the scenes for most of the past year now to release their new cataloging schemes to the public—specifically to allow software developers time to prepare. Otherwise, we face the likelihood that many processes—both inside and outside of the US government—will fail when the changes are implemented. And in some cases, legacy software may not be capable of being updated and users should be given time to find, test, and implement new solutions that will.

I can also tell you that BOTH schemes are being used by different parts of DOD. When I have requested that they publish that information at a location people could use as a reference for making changes, in each case I was assured that those schemes would be used for internal purposes only. That assurance has already been weakened when 18 SPCS and Space Track implemented a minor change in the Conjunction Data Messages (CDMs) last month using 9-digit catalog numbers.

There have been suggestions about changing the propagator and message format, as well, but I don’t seem to be in the loop there. Obviously the implications of changing those will be profound, given our community's current reliance on TLEs and SGP4. CelesTrak will do what it can to provide continuity between legacy software and any new format and propagator, even though there is a good chance we may have to scramble to do so if we are not provided adequate time before a change is announced and implemented.

Obviously, I do not work for nor represent DOD or the US government. I am as frustrated as many of you about the lack of transparency on resolving this important issue. I will continue to push for that transparency behind the scenes and to advocate for release of any changes as soon as possible.  - TS

Dr. T.S. Kelso
CelesTrak, https://celestrak.com
E-Mail: ts.kelso_at_celestrak.com<mailto:ts.kelso_at_celestrak.com>

On 2019 May 03, at 16:08, Gavin Eadie via Seesat-l <seesat-l_at_satobs.org<mailto:seesat-l_at_satobs.org>> wrote:

I’d like to know what thoughts the players like Kelso and Vallado are having about these pending (?) changes.

For example, might we be looking to moving away from SGP4 in the next few years?  It’s certainly the case that modern day computing devices can easily cope with more accurate modeling.

Conversely, in a world of greater connectivity should we just be downloading precomputed orbital paths and stop running prediction software on our devices?

Personally, I doubt either of the above is either good or likely .. I’m just anxious that (a) only reacting to a new numbering standard or (b) rewriting a bunch of software just to be 64-bit capable is thinking too small.

I worry that we’re devising/discussing solutions for the next fifty years without a clear understanding of the problem and/or consideration of the solutions that are already in work.

I think the various options written about here are fine stop-gap options and may be necessary if new NORAD numbering is imminent.

.. Sent by iPhone

On May 3, 2019, at 10:56 AM, John A. Dormer 2 via Seesat-l <seesat-l_at_satobs.org<mailto:seesat-l_at_satobs.org>> wrote:

Also, I think I missed a point you made, Dr. Langbroek: user interface. tkinter is the standard GUI suite used in Python:

https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/tkinter.html

Tk has been around for decades, and is the basis for the suite.

Also, at this point, if there's more discussion to be had, we should move this to a new thread instead of hijacking this one so aggressively. :)

   John

On 5/3/2019 09:38, John A. Dormer 2 via Seesat-l wrote:
Python has one drawback, and that is that it is a scripting language rather than
ready software. That puts an extra barrier to average users.
This is solved by using tools like pyinstaller, one of several tools which can convert a Python script into a standalone single-file executable in several operating environments:

https://www.pyinstaller.org/

I believe that this would let the high-level geekery stay safely bottled. The learning curve for it is flat.

Tests to see that Python can handle the necessary mathematical precision are still necessary, but as it frequently relies on the local environment's math libraries, I don't expect it will be an issue.

   John

On 5/3/2019 07:26, Marco Langbroek wrote:
Op 3-5-2019 om 13:26 schreef C. Bassa via Seesat-l:
John raises a good point, and the recent PPAS discussion highlights
the risk of old tools running on old operating systems.

I agree that python is the most logical language for new tools, as
there are many good libraries that can be used for the core
functionality (orbit calculations, frame and time conversions,
image/video processing etc). Also, python is available for different
operating systems. Furthermore, I would stress that we develop those
tools as open source to allow maintainability in the future.

Python has one drawback, and that is that it is a scripting language rather than
ready software. That puts an extra barrier to average users.

Most important imo is that software is intuitive, user friendly and can be used
out of the box by non-programmers, without a need to use command lines or code
lines. Our hobby as it is is esoteric enough, so we should strive to keep the
geek-level as low as possible if we aim to get more people involved.

- Marco



-----
Dr Marco Langbroek  -  SatTrackCam Leiden, the Netherlands.
e-mail: sattrackcam_at_langbroek.org

Cospar 4353 (Leiden):     52.15412 N, 4.49081 E (WGS84), +0 m ASL
Cospar 4355 (Cronesteyn): 52.13878 N, 4.49937 E (WGS84), -2 m ASL
Station (b)log: http://sattrackcam.blogspot.com
Twitter: _at_Marco_Langbroek
-----






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Received on Fri May 03 2019 - 12:49:14 UTC

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