These appeared 30 degrees apart with the shuttle leading, the shuttle is much brighter (=saturn) with Mir mag2 at this angle. As the sun set on Atlantis I coulnt see mir at all The shuttle is in a lower orbit but the inclination allowed it to be illuminated a minute longer than Mir. Sunset went dim then red then gone. Conversely, I was able to spot my city (west of Chicago) easily in the shuttle camera 4 nights ago over a satellite dish on NASA select. The light pollution is terrible here and the city was putting out as much light as many lightning flashes do in the same camera. Chicago has some extremely bright areas on it. South Japan is nearly dark. Separation given by NASA TV right after the observation. object Date TimeZ OB az el ra dec Mag 86- 17 A 97-10-04 00:56:05 CK 176 34.6 19:54 -13'14" 1 ->inv mir 16609 97- 55 A 97-10-04 00:55:15 CK 176 34.6 19:54 -13 -2 ->inv sts86 24964 n42 02 10.4 w91 40 19.0 (Iowa USA) 90' dry air slight haze record high. GPS time ref. Someone mentioned a hearsat-l do you mean the grove.net list or is there another?